Rishabh (00:00)
San Francisco is the place where people shit on the road. That's like, that's yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of similar to waterfalls, it turns out.
Danilo (00:03)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Zach Murray (00:09)
I have something to say about I had never been there until like two months ago. I went, I was actually supposed to fly back to Toronto. My flight got canceled and I was on a retreat with a guy. like, I'm flying to San Francisco. We both met up at the airport. He's like, just get on my flight. Cause my flight was delayed for like two days. It was like when that plane crashed in Toronto or whatever.
And so I went to San Francisco. I've never been in a place where I felt like the general population was more passive aggressive than in San Francisco.
Danilo (00:28)
Mmm.
Zach Murray (00:39)
I don't know what it was, but it like everybody wasn't saying what they wanted to say, even like the baristas.
Danilo (00:45)
Do you do you want to do you want to know why that is? Jack should I just start going off?
I wish I took it. I wish I wish I wish I I was in the right mood for this.
But the reason is because they're disintegrated. what I believe is that I think like what is real is life and life is the physical interface of consciousness and consciousness is information integration which is like to - at Wisconsin, this is not my theory, this is him, which is just to say that like what exists is like information that's integrated. Which is all to say that if we were all in person, it would be more real than if we're on this app, right?
And like the reason why if you like go scroll for like on TikTok for like five hours straight, like you feel dead, it's because like it's the peak of information disintegrated. And so like if San Francisco is like the peak, like is like the sort of like epitome of tech, right?
which we can say like the more tech you know the more like you are just disintegrated like you're just like looking at a group of a group of people that are disintegrated which is like where they just start acting like not like themselves what i'm trying to and i'm not saying that that's you i'm sure i'm sure i'm sure you're very integrated but but i guess what i'm saying is that if you brought all those people and you put them in like a real environment
with like real trees and they got off their phones and they were walking around and there was like real things, I don't think they would be passive aggressive. Not to say that San Francisco isn't sick. San Francisco is of course is sick.
Zach Murray (02:11)
What do you think, Rishabh? Do you agree that San Francisco people are passive aggressive? I just feel like it was like a bloke.
Rishabh (02:16)
I think the reason that people in SF are passive aggressive is much, is like a little bit simpler than that. Like this feels like a, like a strong deep theory. I'm, I'm a little bit simpler. people take themselves too seriously. ⁓
Because there's this whole like, I need to be building something great and blah, blah. And that leads to people taking themselves way too seriously.
And when you take yourself too seriously, you end up acting passive aggressively because you're like, instead of like just saying things to people or just being nice to people, you have this whole like hooty tootiness about you. And I think that it might be that simple. Like in New York, for example, people are not passive aggressive. They're just aggressive, right? Like, or in Philadelphia.
Like I used to live in Philly, there's no passive aggressiveness, there's just aggressiveness. And that's kind of nice, it's kind of refreshing. You know, it's like, get out of my way, I'm in a hurry. And that's kind of, that's like the demeanor. And that's like totally fine. because it's like, hey, I'm trying to make it, as opposed to like, hey, I'm taking myself too seriously.
Right? That's like, that's roughly what I think the general disposition of people in SF is. And, for better or for worse, I think SF is like one of the most homogenous places on the planet. Like it's actually kind of unbelievable. Like everybody works in tech. That's it. Like, I don't, can't remember the last time I like ran into like a group of artists
or literally anything else. It's just like everywhere I go, everybody works in tech. It's just like the only heterogeneity is superficial, it's otherwise like very homogenous city. ever lived in.
Danilo (04:03)
I think we're saying the same thing. Personally, I think we're saying the same thing.
Rishabh (04:07)
I think you probably said it in a smarter way than me because I couldn't follow what disintegration means. You know what I mean? just like dude, I'm just like, for me it's like much simple, much simpler. Yeah.
Danilo (04:21)
I think no matter where you live, there's hell. I think hell is just like a general property that exists. so whether or not you're like in the middle of the jungle in Brazil, or you're in Peru, or you're in Toronto, or you're in San Francisco,
I think you're going to be in hell. And so you just have to make sure you pick the right hell. Which is also the same way of saying is that every place is also sick. So it's just like choosing the right version for you.
Jack (04:49)
Yeah, what you said reminded me little bit of what Zach was saying earlier about getting, if you get sued, you should be able to fight that person, to duel with them. know, it kind of reminds me of that a little bit.
You know, if you stripped everything back and we were just in a field, how would you settle this?
Rishabh (04:49)
I agree with that.
Wait, Zach, now you wanna fight people?
Zach Murray (05:07)
No, I was just saying that like, was, telling this story about a friend who like got ousted from his company and then he sued the board and it was the biggest mistake of his life because they essentially subpoenaed all of his personal like conversations, text messages, and it ended up ruining more than, he ended up losing the lawsuit and all of his personal relationships were kind of like and I was just saying like, if someone ever sued me, like my, my gut reaction and the way that I react to it is I should at least be able to propose this as an option for a duel.
And I just don't generally like these random systems that are built up of, ⁓ this court, and then they can make you do this and make you do that. But I don't like the idea that I can't make anybody else do anything in those situations.
And so like, I simply think that an old fashioned duel, especially amongst like two people of the same sex, should be an option.
Danilo (06:09)
Of course, of course. I- that's sick. I- I'm in agreement.
Zach Murray (06:12)
Like if someone isn't willing, and like this would be like still like rules, right?
Like you couldn't bring a knife to a gunfight, but in a way, like if someone's like, I'm gonna sue you, gonna make you show up to court and do all of this kind of stuff, I should at least have like a thing being like, okay, like meet me in a mud pit and we wrestle naked.
And if you say no to that, then you have to drop the suit. Because if you're not willing to at least just like do that, then this isn't that serious then and you shouldn't be able to drag me to do your way.
I just feel like it would get rid of a lot of the bullshit and the, don't like performances and stuff like that. If I really cared about something, I would meet someone in a pit of mud and rest them naked. But if it's not even willing to do something like that, then it's probably not that serious.
Jeremiah (07:03)
So you're saying if somebody brings a lawsuit against you, you should have the right to basically have some sort of like, there's like a bar you have to hit in order to like, yeah.
Zach Murray (07:14)
Yeah, like a buy-in. Yeah. If you're going to make me have to go through this legal process, then you at least have to show up for
Danilo (07:21)
The insight there is a lot of times what is real is good. And so you're saying you could go through some crazy, very fake, quasi-arbitrary legal system, or you could just fight the guy, which is just much more real. And a lot of times things that are real are good.
And I think if people could fight after a legal situation, they would probably have much better relationships with those people than just a lawsuit. that was more courage, you would just get all the tension out. I be wrong.
Zach Murray (08:02)
Yeah. I also just think generally it's like, if someone was like, let's just say someone sued me for something that like, inherently don't think is wrong. And I truly believe that. Like, I think I'm more willing to like show up to like fight for like, what I think is like right. Then the person potentially using a system to get something that they want. And so like, I just think that like the truth comes out when it, when it comes down to like, kind of like showing up versus like the differences, like I think systems and like processes are like exploited by people that are trying to get something right now.
Danilo (08:38)
But that's all of our careers, That's all of our careers. you know, like I'm just saying, like we're just like playing on like these like kind of dumb systems that like allow us to, you know, like in some ways, shape or form, like cause violence on some people because like we're winning on some level of abstractions that are not.
Jeremiah (08:55)
I actually really think that's interesting to dive into a little bit more. And that's not at all on the topics that we're looking at for today.
But I actually think that's really interesting. I kind of want to dive in on that specifically, that idea of like, because I think there's a lot of, like all of business exists in some capacity because there is some sort of flawed system that allows for an opportunity to exist, right? And system is like a very broad term in that context.
But I think what's interesting is it's not, is it always violence in that context or is it also, can it be the opposite of that? Can it be that you're actually mending something in a broken system?
Danilo (09:41)
When we're talking about things as large as like economic systems, like violence, opportunity, like any of these like words, like the answer almost however you want to phrase it is just going to be yes and no.
I think like where all these things come down to is like, what do you believe is good?
And so I think everything is good is when you feel full life. And I think everything that's bad is things that feel lifeless. And I think that is like a universal thing.
Our model of violence is very much in physical, but as Zach talked about, damage gets done in the abstract. All these things that we did in past centuries, like slavery or physical type of violence, a lot of times now they just up in abstraction. like just anything that is like reducing a six-year-old's like ability to like be with himself and like not with an iPad, like I'm just like not necessarily for. Which isn't to say that you can't design economic systems to avoid that and also create a free market.
Absolutely you can. But again, these words are just so big that the answer is I think always going to be yes and no. One thing Jack and I always talked about, and the thing I also say at Nausium is knowledge is an if-then statement. And so we can find an if that makes the then make sense. Always, just again with the size of these words. ⁓
We also need to talk about this stuff. We can talk about SaaS guys too. This is a SaaS podcast, right? This is a SaaS. I'm down to talk about whatever.
Rishabh (11:20)
The chosen example, like, happening to be one that on the one hand is visceral, but on the other hand is not a lived experience is just interesting.
Danilo (11:29)
Well, I think, I think interesting just means like demands, demands more thought that you're not going to have now. So we could just unpack it. I'm not even trying. That sounded way more aggressive than I wanted to, but not like, like I could give a million examples. It's just, that is like the most visceral one where we can like, we can all like the one thing I think people can get aligned with is they want to have their kids have a better future than like, than, like, than, than they had.
Rishabh (11:52)
I totally agree. totally agree. Yeah, the reason I say it's interesting is again, because it's like, it's taking the idea and saying like, what is the impact going to be on if we view it in terms of like a generational, ⁓ like future casting thing. So that's like one reason why I think that the example is interesting. And then the other reason I think the example is interesting is ⁓ I think like things like using the iPad is viewed more often than not from its negative consequences. generally, system, so like my view on systems in general is that's also how we organize in order to cooperate to get things done. Right?
And so you take that same iPad example and it turns out that has actually been the fastest, that's been the single biggest driver of my daughter's vocabulary and even more so than socializing with other kids, socializing with adults, like things like this, it's just like, because the variance of ideas is so wide relative to like what one person would otherwise think about.
It's like the system is also again, like enabling the drive of cooperation of human beings because again, like that's what vocabulary is vocabulary is like an ability for us to cooperate with each other because now we can express more interesting and intricate ideas and so like on the yes I agree that like systems on the one hand It's like a removal from the sort of like one-to-one of you with your surroundings But actually that removal is good because that's what drives organization ⁓
That's like what drop it drove agriculture. That's what's like that's like, you know, like law drives again like organizational behavior of at the country level which then gets abused also But those like the cyst I mean anyway, like if we want to stay in the in the territory of like hey What is a different framing of the same concept like? I'm kind of like a fan of systems right like not not to say that we shouldn't Ask ourselves like hey, what are the negative consequences of these systems?
But I think that actually that's like what drives cooperation.
Jeremiah (13:50)
I think the challenge though with the system, cause I actually, think this is a really interesting conversation. The, ⁓ like the, the iPad thing is a good example.
My, kids don't have an iPad, but my, my four year old is learning to read using an app, ⁓ on the, ⁓ that my wife has on her phone. And we just like every, not every day, but most days sit down and do a reading lesson. And she's learned so much and she loves doing it because it's engaging in a way that looking at a piece of paper is not.
And then that translates to her reading things on paper, right? So there is like a good thing there. But the interesting thing about the systems piece, going back to that specifically, is that in theory, you would think a system is just a structuring of like, they are designed to create order and that order allows for growth and development and all that.
But I think that the challenge is when systems are built by people, the people that are building the systems have their own motivations. And oftentimes, I think so much of our motivations, like things in that being something that I build from my benefit, if I'm building a system and I'm building it from my benefit, there is some group of people that almost certainly are going to be at a disadvantage in that system because it's being built for me and for my benefit if I'm the one creating that system, it's almost impossible to create a system that's actually universally beneficial for, for all people. ⁓ and so think there's an interesting thing here where, basically systems end up being negative for some and positive for others.
Almost by default, it's almost impossible for a system to be fully a neutral thing. That's good for all. and this goes back to like the legal thing too, right? It's the same thing, right? Like that's obviously that that system is great for some people and bad for others.
And that's just what ends up happening. And the more the bigger your system gets, the more convoluted it gets, the more like motivations get pushed into that system and the more warped it becomes and less useful ultimately.
Jack (15:48)
So SAS operators, topic request from Sean. Did you guys see this on x?
Rishabh (15:56)
Dude.
Jack (15:59)
I think we've got to honor it. Guys, how do you choose the most confusing name for your startup? We need Rashad and Zach to chime in here.
Rishabh (16:00)
It's too funny.
Zach Murray (16:09)
Okay. So honestly, every time I tell people how I came to the name of foreplay, like a light bulb goes on and like, like I get it now. And so I'll tell like the abbreviated version, but essentially I was, I was reading Richard Branson's book, losing my virginity.
And in that book, he tells, he talks about naming your company a taboo name. And he kind of has like the section in the book where he likes writes all the good things that happen naming it virgin. And then all the bad things that have happened naming it Virgin and he says like, like when I'm writing this book, you know, the word Virgin doesn't seem that taboo, but when I named Virgin Virgin, it was very taboo.
And I wrote, I read all of the good things and I was like, these all sound super great. And I wrote all of the bad things and everything on the bad list. was like, I don't really care that much about it. And so when I was starting,
I had sold the e-commerce brand and I was starting something new. I knew I wanted to build software and I knew I wanted to be in like ads and creative and so I kind of gave myself the constraints of like needs to be taboo and needs to be one word.
And so I was just brainstorming kind of this idea of like, what is advertising and marketing? And I was like, well, it's kind of just for play with the customer.
And those were the dots that connected and like, yeah, that's how I came up with the name was like, I wanted it to be taboo and I wanted it to be one word. And I found that advertising and marketing was for play with the customer.
Danilo (17:28)
Great name.
Rishabh (17:29)
Yeah, it is.
Fermat is not that interesting. It's like, I'm a physicist, I like physicists. And Fermat observed the first like, ⁓ physical phenomenon of what's called the principle of least action, which is light bends when it goes from like air to water.
And that sort of non obvious path is the shortest path. And so I was just like, I want something to do with the principle of least action for commerce. And so just named it after him.
And then I was also, in my opinion, I think other companies named after scientists do pretty well. Like Tesla, Apple, like these are like, they did okay. that was, that was basically it.
Jack (18:08)
I like that. I like that name. I hadn't thought about it. I actually, I only know about Fermat, the scientist from Googling Fermat and not finding Fermat, but finding Fermat the scientist. So thanks for explaining that. I saw another tweet down here that I thought was very funny.
Let's see, Fermat wins the tiebreak because the business is almost as confusing as the name. What do you say, Rishabh?
Rishabh (18:23)
Yeah.
I saw that, I saw that.
I agree with that assessment. There's good and bad about being a not well understood business. The bad is that it's hard to acquire customers. The good is that we really don't have any competitors. it's equally confusing to everyone. Yeah.
Jeremiah (18:34)
What's interesting though is your reason for the name is actually a really good summary for what it is that you're trying to achieve. So that's, that's interesting to me. This idea of the least action ⁓ concept. maybe.
Danilo (19:03)
You know like Karl Friston's free energy principle? It's kind of like working on that idea. like you would like that.
Jack (19:15)
I've never heard of it either. How does that link?
Danilo (19:18)
I would say it's probably the hottest new quote unquote theory of everything and like the bio world. And it basically just says that like all systems like strive to like do whatever will like reduce surprise.
Rishabh (19:35)
Yeah, that sounds reasonable to me. I think reducing surprises is what most people seek to do.
Danilo (19:43)
He's a brilliant, brilliant guy. he also, his routine is, and I think it's been like this for 40 years or 30 years, and I could be talking out of my ass. I just could be completely wrong, but I don't think I am.
He's like a British chap who wakes up, drinks his coffee, or drinks his tea, and he goes to his garden, and then he writes some papers, and then maybe he goes to some, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that every person's idea is a projection of the person.
⁓ And in that, I think in that case, it's a little extreme with him.
Jack (20:17)
I see what you're Interesting. It took me a couple seconds.
There's a little buffer, Danila, when you say something. No, no, no, it's me. It's me. It's a little buffer between when you say something and when I understand it. It takes me like two, three seconds. like, OK, I get it.
Danilo (20:22)
Sorry.
Rishabh (20:31)
Dude, Jack, we got a rapid fire on Danilo because I like, I don't know your story, man, to be honest, but Jack was like, yeah, he raised a bunch of money for a SaaS company.
And then I don't know what happened after that, but now you're building houses near a waterfall. So something happened between raising a bunch of money for a SaaS company and raising houses and building houses next to a waterfall.
Danilo (20:53)
I started a company called Main Street, which is now called Hoist. ⁓ Raised a seed from Coleslaw and Series A from Greylock and was part of Y Combinator. yeah, worked on that company for a couple years and left it to do some research and also sign a legal contract, which leads me to the point where that is what I'll say on it. ⁓you know, amazing, amazing, uh, experience for an amazing movie for another lifetime.
Um, but yeah, I had, had, had an amazing time, uh, with some great co-founders. Um, and, uh, yeah, it was, in a financial place to where I could kind of do like this, like take a, I guess, extended sabbatical.
I wanted to some research and I was going to do it at a university but it didn't work out so basically I ended up doing the equivalent of like an independent PhD which is a different word to say, I was just a crackpot and traveled around the world and then like one of the things I did during that time was apply like the core of what my thesis was to like to a place.
And so that's what I built, which is this spot ⁓ in Brazil. ⁓ It's an applied theory ⁓ of the work I did. But yeah, I've also done a bunch of very random things. ⁓ I figured out how to hack American Airlines to know what celebrities were on what flights.
So I had all these 1099s running around LAX and JFK airport, harassing celebrities for autographs and sold it on the internet. I've done a bunch of random fun stuff like that and working on some cool projects ⁓ that I can't talk about now, but just exciting stuff.
Rishabh (22:58)
We talked in like previously about like raising versus not raising and the different types of businesses that that leads to. Like what's your general, what's your general sentiment on like what's your opinion on what's, what's a good reason to raise? What's a not good reason to raise? Yeah, like what do you view as the differences in the business building when you raise versus not raise?
Danilo (23:21)
Well, it's like, you you look at Venezuela, right? And like Venezuela has like a lot of, of course I say something so random like that. Like Venezuela has like a lot of resources, right? Like they have this thing in the ground in which like they take this thing out of the ground and it just prints money. you know, and I started my first company with like $200 and I started my second company with like 25 million bucks.
And the first company did more revenue than the second company with these types of questions, like it's always an if that statement. so, and so for who the person is and like, whatever their if is like the then make sense, I don't know. It feels like a cop out. ⁓ But yeah. How about you guys?
Jeremiah (24:00)
It is
Rishabh (24:02)
We have like a span of different models. like, ⁓ format raised a lot of money. No is more like a P E yeah. Incubator style. And then Zach, think just straight bootstrap, right Zach.
Zach Murray (24:17)
Yeah, yeah. I will say like, whatever I do next, think I'm going to raise for no other reason than like, I generally look at life as like, as like a video game, but everyone says, but like, like, I just look at it like an interesting map to go do next, which would be like the venture route. my general advice to people is like,
If you're starting your first software company, think raising is a really bad idea. And then like for every other company after that, I raising becomes more of a better, like a better idea for each company to do after that. And like in the same way that like, if I started another company today, I would have more resources than I did when I started foreplay. like that is like a true statement that would just happen.
And so in a way, like if I started another company right now, like I kind of would be starting it, you know, funded, but by myself at like a higher level. so I'm like, well, why, if I'm going to do that route, then I might as well do it at the highest level, which would be like raising institutions. like, I generally don't think that raising for like a first software company, if you like, especially when I'm thinking about like young people is like a good idea.
And I don't think it increases your likelihood of success at all. If anything, I think it does the opposite.
Danilo (25:39)
It's all hell. It's all hell. Either way, it's hell, and that's okay. It's all hell.
Jeremiah (25:43)
The constraints thing is an interesting point though, because I wonder if on some level, this is more of a question than a statement, but if on some level it may be that you just have to be more disciplined if you have, I mean, it's not unlimited resources, but if you have $25 million compared to 200, that feels like unlimited resources, right? And so your discipline has to be greater, I would think, in order for those resources to be used as effectively. And maybe it's not even possible to use them as effectively, I don't know.
Danilo (26:10)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (26:12)
Like if what you did prior to starting a company was like you managed a massive department and you're really good at hiring, then you should probably go raise money because your skill set is on hiring and with capital, like the highest leverage thing you can do with hire versus like if you're fresh, the idea that someone that is fresh would be very great at hiring and managing from day one is almost zero. So.
Danilo (26:37)
I had a 1.8 GPA at the University of Delaware and then raised the money and then hired the president of Groupon and the head of talent at Bridgewater pre-product market fit. I don't think I was even that good at agree with you though.
I also agree with you, but I also disagree with again, these topics are just so big.
These topics are so big and there's like sort of this meta idea that we can like apply sort of like, like these, like this ontological layer of a pattern to it, think is, is, is, is quasi music, quasi misguided, which I just, which is just a very fancy way of saying, like, it really just depends. Like,
Rishabh (27:27)
No, no, no, dude, you can't do this. What people want to hear solutions. They don't want to hear like, hey, it depends. the guy who gets the most clicks on Twitter is the guy who's selling, hey, here's how to make free money. Not the guy who's saying like, it depends. And you got to like think about it. But I don't want to hear it depends. And you got to think about it. This is a podcast.
Danilo (27:44)
I know I know you're a you're a you're a you're a hundred percent right you're a hundred percent right yeah yeah raise raise raise raise raise raise raise all raise all the yeah raise all the money raise all the money like it's fine it's fine
Rishabh (27:54)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (28:03)
And if you're like, you want me to, you want to do crazy?
I was like talking with an LP, um, and she gave money to this 18 year old kid that was like essentially building, he was essentially building like Slack, but for high schools. And he took the money. It was like, I don't think it was like a couple million bucks.
He took the money and he bought a Ferrari.
And then they found out that the MVP that he had built wasn't actually an MVP. Like it was definitely like, like lipstick on a pig, smoke and mirrors. And he just like stopped working on it. And so then they went to him being like, Hey, like we need our money back. ⁓ like this is like not legit.
And he's like, I can give you all the money back. but I can't, I'm not going to give you back the money for the car. And then they're like, okay. And they just let him keep the car because they didn't want to sue him because it would be like a bad look.
I was just like, wow, like if I was 18, like maybe I would do that. so if you're 18, you should definitely raise money and commit fraud.
Rishabh (29:04)
What is happening right now?
Jeremiah (29:10)
You only get to do it once though, that's the deal.
Zach Murray (29:12)
You can only do it once. You can only do it once.
Jack (29:14)
Nah, I heard they didn't want to sue him because he was a pretty big guy and they didn't want to get in the mud pit. That's what happened.
Zach Murray (29:21)
Okay, we have two more legitimate topics we should probably get.
Jack (29:26)
Did you guys see this? By the way, the Black Mirror episode, that was like the first episode in the series, it made me so depressed. My girlfriend convinced me to watch it and I thought this is terrible. I don't like it. Let's switch to something more positive. But it's basically like your life on subscriptions.
Right, did you guys see this?
Rishabh (29:46)
I have not yet seen it, but I have heard about it.
Jeremiah (29:49)
No.
Zach Murray (29:51)
I mean, is the thing here we're saying that like subscriptions are bad?
Jack (29:55)
Yeah, I mean, it was, guess the idea.
Zach Murray (29:57)
I think some persons are the best thing in the entire...
and I always go back to this when people talk about like software subscriptions being expensive and, I get to pay every month for it, all this type of stuff. All I go back to is I remember when I was like 15 years old and I had just started like learning how to design and build websites. And like the cost of getting like the Adobe creative suite was like $2,000. And like, that was an impossible amount of money to ever have. And so like I pirated it and.
Now you can get the entire creative Adobe creative suite for like 50 bucks a month and you can cancel it whenever people talk about Adobe. Oh, they make it a little bit hard to cancel this, whatever. But like, think subscription is the best thing in the entire world. Like even like people like, Oh, like Netflix is getting expensive. It's like, the fuck are you talking about?
Like it's like $20 a month and you get more stuff than you could ever like use in your entire life. like, if you're under utilizing a subscription, that's one thing, whatever than make a better life choice.
Rishabh (30:54)
So for what little it's worth, what people don't understand is subscription is literally just renting. Like that's all it is. And it turns out that renting is a very good model for managing cashflow, as opposed to owning, which by definition, owning like creates exactly the rift that Zach talked about, which is it advantages the people that have more capital and more resources ahead of time.
Jeremiah (31:02)
Yep.
Rishabh (31:19)
It's like super simple. Now, I think we're saying, hey, consumption may not be good or bad, but the model of subscription is, it's a great financial model because it's actually more equalizing than the model of own only.
Jeremiah (31:34)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (31:36)
It's also better for the companies. Consistent cash flow is better than non-consistent cash flow in most cases.
Jeremiah (31:44)
It allows for more investment and like sustained investment in a product. It is interesting though, because I do think a software subscription is very different than a physical goods subscription. Like if you're subscribing to, I'll just use a, like a supplement company, let's say, you are, that is different in that you are owning it, you're not renting it, and you're paying to own that on a consistent basis. And I do think that feels different than...
Rishabh (32:10)
Yeah, that's just like called subscription, but it's just a reorder.
Zach Murray (32:13)
See you there.
Jeremiah (32:14)
Yeah, the reorder. Yep. It's a different thing. And I do think that like to me, my value, I think that's why those subscriptions don't have the same sort of ⁓ life cycle to them as a software subscription, because it is different in the way that it functions.
Zach Murray (32:31)
There's one subscription I think is bullshit. And I got an eight sleep and the fact that it's like a $4,000 mattress cover and I had to pay like whatever $200 a year for like the app, which like honestly isn't good. Um, that's the only subscription I think is bullshit.
Jack (32:49)
Wait, does the mattress functionality work without the app? ⁓ fuck.
Zach Murray (32:53)
No, like there's no analog input. Like you can't be like set my mattress to this temperature. Like you need to use the app. But I've now referred, I've now referred like five people to buy it and every referral you get a year free on the subscription. So I'm good for five years.
Jeremiah (33:01)
Yeah.
So that's your strategy. You like the product well enough to refer it so you can get free app usage.
Zach Murray (33:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rishabh (33:17)
Yeah, dude, just stop sleeping after five years. Problem solved.
Zach Murray (33:19)
Yeah, that's the plan.
Jack (33:22)
The TLDR on this episode is, I guess the title of the episode is Common People. This woman has some sort of traumatic health condition. She's going to pass away or she gets onto the subscription and then she starts doing ad reads.
So the general idea being those people who are, you know, who are the poorest, and I don't think they're the poorest, you know, in the grand scheme of things, these are very wealthy people, have to put up with, I don't know, ad reads on their Spotify subscriptions
Rishabh (33:49)
Something extremely spicy? If I got to live longer by doing a few ad reads, I'd do a few ad reads.
Jack (33:57)
Right. Right, I don't even think that that's a question for anyone. They would do it.
Zach Murray (34:03)
Yeah. That seems like a really good trade. Like, if this was one-to-one, like if I was doing a 30-second ad read and I only got 30 seconds of life, then that's like a horrible trade. But even if it was like two-to-one, I'd probably spend a year just doing ad reads and I'd get like an extra two years. It seems like a good trade. Like life's the best.
Jack (34:25)
I think there's a lot of negativity bias in this. presenting it as well in the least charitable interpretation. It's like this is the hell and the grayscale life of having to do a few ad reads. I mean, it definitely does seem inconvenient. If you watch the episode, it's like, OK, there's a lot of inconvenience here. But there's just that focus on the inconvenience only and not on the fact that she gets to live long. She gets to live for.
Zach Murray (34:50)
People need to stop complaining.
Rishabh (34:52)
Hahaha
Zach Murray (34:54)
Even like these shows, these shows like Black Mirror that like paint this picture that we're living in like the worst like dystopian life is like the only reason like the fact that you have time to consume a show about how you live in a bad world shows like how privileged your fucking life is. And like we live in like the best time now.
Jeremiah (35:16)
Yeah.
Zach Murray (35:20)
And it was better than five years ago. Like the only thing that I wish we could go back to is like going out to a bar with like no like phones and things like that. Like I think the idea that like you could do stuff and it not be recorded, like I think would be like a level of like life and like risk taking that I don't know, envy, but like everything else is great.
Jeremiah (35:43)
Yeah, the constant connection, I do wish that didn't exist.
Danilo (35:47)
What is life other than going into the bar with your friends and not being worried about being recorded?
Zach Murray (35:52)
The idea that we're not getting any, any reciprocal trade-offs for that. Like I'm saying that's like an acute example of like a negative thing, but like also, I don't know, like having my phone on me when I go out is also pretty fucking great. Like the idea that I can get an Uber and I can just be like, it shows up and picks me up. Yeah. ⁓ my favorite thing is you order the DoorDash in the Uber on the way home and then you get there and you have what you want without standing in line. Incredible.
Danilo (36:10)
DoorDash? You can get DoorDash too. DoorDash is pretty incredible.
Yes, yes,
yes, yes.
Rishabh (36:23)
Or better, without foraging.
Zach Murray (36:25)
Yeah.
Danilo (36:25)
Yes, yes, that is true.
Jeremiah (36:30)
Yeah, it is.
Jack (36:30)
Yeah.
Rishabh (36:30)
My god, all right guys. This was too good. I actually got a drop, but man, Danilo, it was awesome meeting you.
Danilo (36:37)
Come to the waterfalls. Seriously. I'm serious.
Jack (36:40)
Hahaha
Rishabh (36:40)
You know what I heard? I heard, you know I heard? I heard don't go chasing waterfalls, but you know, you and I listen to different things, I guess.
Danilo (36:45)
There you go. There you go.
Cheers, brother.
Head of Marketing
